before the mountains were established and before all the hills, he begets me.
@SlimBoyFat
I cannot find a Hebrew word that equates to "beget" in Prov. 8: 25. Even if there is one, What does the personification of wisdom have to do with anything?
Sea Breeze
JoinedPosts by Sea Breeze
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65
Acts 20: 28 Corruption in the NWT
by Sea Breeze inhere's how this verse should read: .
take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the holy ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of god, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
- kjvhere's how it reads in the nwt: pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of god, which he purchased with the blood of his own son.. here is how it reads in the kjv with the greek keyed to strong's: take heedg4337 thereforeg3767 unto yourselves,g1438 andg2532 to allg3956 theg3588 flock,g4168 overg1722 the whichg3739 theg3588 holyg40 ghostg4151 hath madeg5087 youg5209 overseers,g1985 to feedg4165 theg3588 churchg1577 of god,g2316 whichg3739 he hath purchasedg4046 withg1223 his owng2398 blood.g129 .
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Sea Breeze
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41
John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God
by Sea Breeze inin answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!
- john 20: 28 nwt.
why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.
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Sea Breeze
SlimBoyFat: - More AI generated crap.
JW's - More Apostate Lies
Slim, I can't help but notice your evasiveness when considering evidence that you don't like. If you are unable or unwilling to address the points that others make, why attack the messenger?
This is likely due more to your frustration in lacking sound arguments as opposed to a real dislike for computer technology, which, as I have already point out is very hypocritical since you yourself use it all the time.All the search engines are now AI driven, or haven't you noticed?
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Was "God Manifest in the Flesh" ? - 1 Timothy 3: 16
by Sea Breeze inthese early church leaders (some directly trained by the apostles) think so: .
1 timothy 3:16 as cited by church fathers.
john william burgon (1813 - 1888).
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Sea Breeze
@aqwsed:
I agree. But the Unreliability of the Alexandrian Manuscripts has been well documented and cannot be overlooked as an additional serious consideration.
As the link above shows, Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are among the worst manuscripts known for many reasons.
Over 90% of extant NT manuscripts do not follow the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus readings:Summary of Evidence
Outlying Variants
ο̅ς (uncial error for θ̅ς): F G
ς̅ (error for θ̅ς): 2243
ὅς ("who")μυστήριον ὃς: Aleph* 33 2127μυστήριον· ὃς: 365 1175μυστήριον: ὃς: l 60442 and 463 are occasionally cited, but this is a mistake due to the scholia of Cyril contained in the commentary.ὃ: D (06) vg lat co(sa, bo)
ὃς θεός: 256 (Armenian diglot). The Armenian text reads reads ա͞ծ որ, "God, who"
ο Θεος: 69 88 915 1524 1943 2002
Θεὸς γὰρ: 336
ᾧ: 061
χριστὸς: 91vidθεός ("God")
Uncials
Minuscules
Comprising at least 570 minuscules from every text type including 6, 81, 104, 181, 263, 424, 436, 459, 614, 1241, 1319, 1424, 1505, 1573, 1739, 1862, 1881, 1912, 2110, 2200:
1 3 5 6 18 35 38 42 43 51 57 61 62 76 81 82 90 93 94 97 102 103 104 105 110 122 131 133 141 142 149 172 175 177 181 189 201 203 204 205 206 209 216 218 221 223 226 228 234 250 252 254 263 296 302 308 309 312 314 319 321 322 323 325 326 327 328 330 336 337 356 363 367 378 383 384 385 386 390 393 394 398 400 404 421 424 425 429 431 432 436 440 444 451 452 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 462 465 466 467 468 469 479 489 491 496 498 506 517 522 547 567 582 592 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 612 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 622 623 625 627 628 629 630 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 641 642 644 664 665 676 680 699 757 794 796 801 808 823 824 858 876 886 891 901 909 910 911 912 913 914 918 919 920 921 922 927 928 935 941 945 959 996 997 999 1003 1022 1040 1058 1069 1070 1072 1075 1094 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1115 1127 1149 1161 1162 1240 1241 1242 1243 1244 1245 1247 1248 1249 1250 1251 1270 1277 1292 1297 1311 1315 1319 1352 1354 1359 1360 1367 1384 1390 1398 1400 1404 1405 1409 1424 1425 1448 1456 1482 1490 1495 1501 1503 1505 1508 1509 1521 1548 1573 1594 1595 1597 1598 1599 1609 1610 1611 1617 1618 1622 1626 1628 1636 1637 1642 1643 1646 1649 1652 1661 1673 1678 1702 1704 1717 1718 1719 1720 1721 1723 1724 1725 1726 1727 1728 1731 1732 1733 1734 1735 1736 1737 1738 1739 1740 1741 1742 1743 1744 1745 1746 1747 1748 1749 1750 1751 1752 1753 1754 1757 1759 1760 1761 1763 1765 1766 1767 1768 1769 1770 1771 1772 1780 1795 1798 1827 1828 1830 1831 1832 1836 1837 1839 1840 1841 1843 1845 1847 1848 1849 1850 1851 1852 1853 1854 1855 1856 1857 1858 1860 1861 1862 1863 1864 1865 1867 1868 1869 1870 1871 1872 1873 1874 1875 1876 1877 1879 1880 1881 1882 1886 1888 1889 1890 1891 1892 1893 1894 1896 1897 1899 1900 1902 1903 1905 1906 1907 1908 1910 1911 1912 1914 1916 1917 1918 1919 1920 1921 1922 1923 1924 1925 1927 1929 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1939 1941 1945 1946 1947 1948 1950 1951 1952 1954 1955 1956 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1976 1977 1978 1980 1981 1982 1984 1985 1986 1987 1991 1992 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2003 2004 2005 2007 2008 2009 2011 2012 2080 2085 2086 2102 2105 2110 2125 2131 2138 2143 2147 2175 2180 2183 2189 2191 2194 2197 2200 2201 2208 2218 2221 2248 2255 2257 2261 2279 2298 2310 2318 2344 2356 2374 2378 2400 2401 2404 2412 2431 2466 2475 2482 2483 2484 2492 2494 2495 2501 2502 2508 2511 2516 2523 2527 2541 2544 2554 2558 2576 2587 2625 2626 2627 2629 2652 2653 2659 2674 2675 2690 2691 2696 2704 2705 2712 2718 2723 2736 2739 2746 2772 2774 2777 2815 2816 2817 2865 2886 2889 2892 2899 2909 2918 2936Additional MSS listed by Burgon but for various reasons I have been unable to verify.
Microfilm illegible: 101(113P)No access: 241(120P) 242(121P) 257(257P)Lectionaries
Uncialsl 250Minusculesl 23, l 38, l 39, l 44, l 59, l 62, l 96, l 97, l 112, l 144, l 145, l 156, l 167, l 169, l 173, l 587, l 809, l 884, l 895, l 1126, l 1159, l 2010, l 2058 (ongoing search in progress)Versions
geo2 slav syr(har) arab(poly) vg(ms) lat(GA#s 457 620c 628)Greek-Latin Diglots
The evidence from the Greek-Latin Diglots is interesting. In almost every case Latin text is not independently translated based upon the parallel Greek, so that Θεὸς and quod most typically coincide on the same page. These manuscripts have already been noted in the lists above.
F and G (9th century) read ο̅ς (error for Θεὸς) in the Greek and quod in the Latin.[4]457 (10th century) reads Θεὸς in the Greek and Deus (“God”) in Latin, though it is not a full diglot—there are significant gaps in the Latin text. It looks more like an interlinear text was started but not completed.460 (13th century) reads Θεὸς in the Greek and quod in Latin. There is also an Arabic column, though I am unfamiliar with the language.620 (12th century) reads Θεὸς in the Greek. The original Latin reading, quod, has been scraped and the text is corrected to Deus.628 (14th century) reads Deus in the Latin column by the original hand.629 (14th century) reads Θεὸς in Greek and quod in Latin.Greek-Armenian Diglots
256 (11th/12th Century) reads ὃς θεός in the Greek and ա͞ծ որ ("God, who") in the Armenian, i.e., "Great is the sacrament of godliness: God, who was manifest in the flesh," etc. (Եւ յայտնի իսկ մե́ծ է խորհուրդն ա͞ծպաշտութեան. ա͞ծ որ երեւեցա́ւ. In this text, ա͞ծ is the contracted form of աստուած, “God.” It is absent from the Zohrab critical edition of 1805, which is utilized in the critical texts). In the manuscript reading ա͞ծպաշտութեան, there is a space between ա͞ծ and պաշտութեան.To summarize, we have many quotes of this scripture with the traditional reading that predate Sinaiticus and Vaticanus as well as the majority of manuscripts and minuscules that preserve the original reading those early quotes were based on. -
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John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God
by Sea Breeze inin answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!
- john 20: 28 nwt.
why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.
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Sea Breeze
@ Halcon: A physical body without mind and heart is what?
That is the biblical definition of "death" - when your soul, body and spirit become separated - usually when the body expires.
This is how God shed his blood and died. This is also how Jesus raised himself from the dead, while he was dead as he predicted he would.@SlimBoyFat
If the conclusion that the apostle John himself reached was that Jesus is the Son of God then that should be good enough for us too.
Why accept that one designation to all the exclusion of the other instances that Jesus is called God in the bible? He is both.
Jesus was fully God (John 1:1), but He was also fully human (John 1:14). As the Son of God and the Son of Man, He is deserving of both titles.
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Was "God Manifest in the Flesh" ? - 1 Timothy 3: 16
by Sea Breeze inthese early church leaders (some directly trained by the apostles) think so: .
1 timothy 3:16 as cited by church fathers.
john william burgon (1813 - 1888).
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Sea Breeze
These early church leaders (some directly trained by the apostles) think so:
1 Timothy 3:16 as cited by Church Fathers
- John William Burgon (1813 - 1888)
- The Greek text
- Ignatius (ca 50 - between 98 and 117
- Dionysius of Alexandria (ca. 190 - 265 AD)
- Didymus of Alexandria or Didymus the Blind (c. 309/314 - 398)
- Diodorus of Tarsus (- 392)
- Gregory of Nazianzus (c 325 - 389)
- Gregory of Nyssa (c 335 – probably 395)
- John Chrysostom (c. 347 - 407)
- Cyril of Alexandria (c. 376 - 444)
- Theodoret of Cyrus (c. 393 – c. 460)
- Unknown author (430)
- Unknown author, 5th century
- Euthalius (5th century)
- Conclusion
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41
John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God
by Sea Breeze inin answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!
- john 20: 28 nwt.
why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.
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Sea Breeze
it further confirms that the Son is certainly not the same person as the Father
Just as your spirit (and soul) is certainly not the same person as your flesh, but together they make one being called human or "Man".
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John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God
by Sea Breeze inin answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!
- john 20: 28 nwt.
why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.
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Sea Breeze
@Halcon,
Your question (to Aqwsed) goes out of the way to presuppose that Jesus is not in his body in heaven.
Here is a refutation of that view from "Got Questions" :
The physical, bodily resurrection of Jesus is foundational to Christian doctrine and our hope of heaven. Because Jesus rose from the dead with a physical body, every Christian has the guarantee of his own bodily resurrection (John 5:21, 28; Romans 8:23). Now Jesus is in heaven, where He is pictured as sitting in a place of authority, at the right hand of God (1 Peter 3:22). But is Jesus’ body in heaven the same as His body on earth?
The Bible is clear that Jesus’ body was resurrected. The tomb was empty. He was recognizable to those who knew Him. Jesus showed Himself to all His disciples after His resurrection, and more than five hundred people were eyewitnesses to His earthly, post-resurrection presence (1 Corinthians 15:4–6). In Luke 24:16, on the road to Emmaus, two of Jesus’ disciples “were kept from recognizing [Jesus].” However, later, “their eyes were opened and they recognized Him” (verse 31). It’s not that Jesus was unrecognizable; it’s that, for a time, the disciples were supernaturally restrained from recognizing Him.
Later in the same chapter of Luke, Christ makes it plain to His disciples that He does have a physical body; He is not a disembodied spirit: “See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” (Luke 24:39). After spending forty days with His disciples, Jesus ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9). Jesus is still human, and He has a human body in heaven right now. His body is different, however; earthly human flesh is perishable, but heavenly bodies are imperishable (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus has a physical body, with a difference. His resurrected body is designed with eternity in view.
First Corinthians 15:35–49 describes what the body of the believer will be like in heaven. Our heavenly bodies will differ from our earthly ones in type of flesh, in splendor, in power, and in longevity. The apostle Paul also states that the believer’s body will be an image of Christ’s body (verse 49). Paul discusses this subject again in 2 Corinthians, where he compares earthly bodies to tents and heavenly bodies to heavenly dwellings (2 Corinthians 5:1–2). Paul says that, once the earthly tents come off, Christians will not be left “naked”—that is, without a body to live in (2 Corinthians 5:3). When the new body is “put on,” we will go from mortality to immortality (2 Corinthians 5:4).
So, we know that the Christian will have a heavenly body like Jesus’ “glorious body” (Philippians 3:21). At His incarnation Jesus took on human flesh, and at His resurrection His body was glorified—although He retained the scars (John 20:27). He will forever be the God-Man, sacrificed for us. Christ, the Creator of the universe, will forever stoop to our level, and He will be known to us in heaven in a tangible form that we can see, hear, and touch (Revelation 21:3–4; 22:4). -
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John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God
by Sea Breeze inin answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!
- john 20: 28 nwt.
why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.
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Sea Breeze
@Halcon: two separate beings although both retaining the title of God.
This contradicts the Hebrew Shema in Duet. 6: 4
Deu 6:4 Hear,H8085 O Israel:H3478 The LORDH3068 our GodH430 is oneH259 LORD:H3068H430
אֱלֹהִים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God
In other words, the Gods are one God.
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41
John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God
by Sea Breeze inin answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!
- john 20: 28 nwt.
why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.
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Sea Breeze
@Halcon
The belief that Jesus and God are the same person with a different essence is called Modalism. This view holds that God is one being who manifests himself in different modes or forms, one of which is Jesus Christ. It contrasts with the Trinitarian view, which posits that God exists eternally as three distinct persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one divine being. Here are some reasons why this should be rejected:
1. Contradiction with Scripture:
Interactions between Persons: The Bible depicts distinct interactions between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For example, Jesus prays to the Father, the Father sends the Son, and the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus at his baptism. Modalism struggles to explain these passages convincingly, as it would imply God is essentially interacting with different aspects of himself, which is seen as illogical and contrary to the relational nature of God presented in scripture.
Simultaneous Presence: Events like Jesus' baptism (Matthew 3:16-17) portray all three "modes" simultaneously present, contradicting the modalist idea of sequential manifestation.
Personhood of the Holy Spirit: Scripture attributes personal characteristics like will, emotions, and mind to the Holy Spirit, suggesting a distinct personhood rather than just a divine force or mode.
2. Undermining Key Christian Doctrines:
The Incarnation: Modalism blurs the distinction between Father and Son, diminishing the unique significance of the Son's incarnation and redemptive work. The core belief is that the Son of God, a distinct person, took on human nature to redeem humanity, which Modalism undermines by suggesting the Son is merely a mode.
The Atonement: If the Father and Son are the same person, then the concept of God sending his Son to die for humanity loses its meaning. The sacrifice becomes God essentially sacrificing himself to himself, which contradicts the relational aspect of the atonement in orthodox Christianity.
Patripassianism: An implication of Modalism is that the Father suffers, or Patripassianism. This is because Modalism doesn't differentiate between the Father and the Son, suggesting the Father suffered on the cross, which contradicts the orthodox belief that only the Son suffered in his humanity.
3. Historical Rejection:
Modalism was condemned as a heresy by early church councils (with a near unanimous vote from pastors from diverse locations throughout the empire) like the Council of Nicaea (325 AD), which affirmed the Trinitarian doctrine of God as one essence in three distinct persons. This rejection highlights the historical consensus within Christianity against modalism.
Any attempt to characterize the nature of Jesus must include the bible's description of BOTH the nature of man AND the nature of God. This chart and scripture references illuminate these distinctions and characteristics :
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John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God
by Sea Breeze inin answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!
- john 20: 28 nwt.
why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.
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Sea Breeze
@SlimBoyFat
The fact that John used both the term: "Son of God" and "God" in the same book to refer to Jesus tells us that both are referring to Jesus' deity. But it is not only John, but Jesus' enemies as well understood the term "Son of God" to be a reference of his deity.During His trial, the High Priest demanded of Jesus, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God” (Matthew 26:63). “‘Yes, it is as you say,’ Jesus replied. ‘But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven’” (Matthew 26:64).
The Jewish leaders responded by accusing Jesus of blasphemy (Matthew 26:65-66). Later, before Pontius Pilate, “The Jews insisted, ‘We have a law, and according to that law He must die, because He claimed to be the Son of God’” (John 19:7). Why would His claiming to be the Son of God be considered blasphemy and be worthy of a death sentence? The Jewish leaders understood exactly what Jesus meant by the phrase “Son of God.”
To be the Son of God is to be of the same nature as God. The Son of God is “of God.” The claim to be of the same nature as God—to in fact be God—was blasphemy to the Jewish leaders; therefore, they demanded Jesus’ death, in keeping with Leviticus 24:15. Hebrews 1:3 expresses this very clearly, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being.”
What is it about Jesus being God that bothered so many people then as it does now?